Ezekiel's Prophecy Failure Against Tyre

The following is from the *Errancy Discussion* list, May 21,

1997:

WALID says:
Dear reader,
I have promissed to respond to Mr. Till's arguments because some
muslims (comments : I told on mcd that I am an agnostic not Muslim) like
Adnan and others listen to his word twisting without examining the facts.
By ignorance he might take with him many muslims to a Christless eternity.

TILL
I'm afraid that we are all going to go to a "Christless eternity," but the
thought of that doesn't bother me. Before I was born, I was nothing and had
no awareness of anything, because I didn't exist. When I die, I will return
to what I was... nothing. What is so dreadful about that?

WALID
To me as a Christian that is not a joking matter at all. That's why I think
it is crucial to answer him on mcd. Worse than that, he mocks the God of
Israel. I will reveal his scripture twisting by God's help. My God is the
God of Israel, and not The God of this world who makes tricks like the
magicians of ancient Egypt.

Clearing Things Up

Till brings a biblicist back down to earth. From the Yahoo group, Alt. Bible Errancy, April 20, 2003:

Gray
Give the slightest objective proof, if possible, that Jesus still

exists, or ever existed, for that matter. You can't.

Larry
Gray, since you believe that he doesn't or ever has existed,

wouldn't you have to prove your point also? Do you believe 
that he doesn't exist, or do you know he doesn't exist? Could 
you give me conclusive evidence that Jesus doesn't exist? 
Maybe it's like trying to prove that you are Steve Gray! How 
would you prove that you are who you say you are?

TILL
Uh, excuse me, Larry, but he who asserts must prove. If I 
asserted that fairies exist, would you feel any obligation to 
prove that fairies do not exist?

Farrell Till

An Omni God And His Eternal Hell (2)

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

The Bible presents its god, Yahweh, as having amazing supernatural characteristics:

1) Omniscient- It is claimed that this god knows all, past, present and future. One very interesting bit of knowledge that this god is claimed to have is found in Mt 7:13-14. This verse teaches that man's ultimate destination is either heaven or hell. And that this god knew before creating the first human, that if he went ahead with this plan to create man found in the Bible, that this version of man would be so flawed that most would wind up in hell.

How Likely Is It? (4)

From the Errancy Discussion list, 5-4-97:

TILL
After the Israelites saw another demonstration of Yahweh's power 
when he afflicted Miriam with leprosy for daring to challenge the 
leadership of Moses, they traveled from Hazeroth and camped in 
the Wilderness of Paran. Surely, the people had seen enough by 
now to understand that their god Yahweh was all-powerful, able 
to provide them with their every need, and above all not to be 
crossed in any way, but such was not the case. While they were 
at Paran, Moses sent spies into the land of Canaan to "see the
land, what it is, and the people therein, whether they are few or 
many, and what the land is that they dwell in, whether it is good 
or bad, and what cities they dwell in, whether in camps or in 
strongholds, and what the land is, whether it is fat or lean, 
whether there is wood therein, or not" (Num. 13:17-20). At 
this point, rational readers of these stories can only ask, "Why 
would Moses, of all people, have sent spies into Canaan to find 
out all these things?" He had routinely met and chatted with the 
all-powerful Yahweh, who had already told him that Canaan was 
a land "flowing with milk and honey" (Ex. 3:8, 17), so are we 
supposed to understand that after all of the demonstrations of 
Yahweh's might and power, Moses wasn't quiet sure to believe 
him about the abundance of the land unless he had independent
confirmation from a band of spies? We also have to wonder why 
Moses would have been concerned about whether there was 
"wood therein," because the Israelites had been incinerating 
animals by the millions in the wilderness of Sinai, on an altar 
whose fire never went out, so if they could find enough wood 
for that in a desert wilderness, Moses shouldn't have been too
concerned about whether there was wood in the land flowing 
with milk and honey.

The Omniscient Yahweh Changes His Mind?

From the Errancy Discussion list, 12-24-98:

Exodus 32:7-14

>BROTHER MICHAEL
Perhaps I did not make myself sufficiently clear; only 

in the rarest of instances is one justified in disobeying 

God or one of His prophets. These three instances are, I 

believe, the only such instances in the OT. Let's look 

briefly at them.

>     

>A. Exodus 32:7-14: Although Moses resisted God, and God 

changed His mind, it is still possible that if Moses had 

stepped aside and allowed God to destroy that disobedient 

generation of Israelites, and start over again with just 

Moses and his immediate family, things ultimately might 

have turned out better all around, although there is no 

way of knowing for sure. So I cannot say for certain that 

Moses did the right thing in resisting God. After the same 

manner, God gave Israel a king when they rejected Him as 

being their only King, and wanted a king just like the 

nations round about.

>

>DAVIS
Hold it, Michael! I may not be as learned and erudite as 

other posters, but I can tell when something's rotten. Why 

am I expected to believe that an omniscient, prescient, and 

omnipotent being like YHWH can be argued out of His intention 

by a former shepherd? Admittedly, YHWH was a bit out of sorts 

that day, acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum, but 

still, to lose an argument with a mere human?  What kind of 

god are you selling here?  This is a god who changes his mind?  

To use biblical language a god who can "repent"?


TILL
The incident that Michael referred to here is just one of many 

that could be cited to show the absurdity of believing that the 

Bible is the inspired work of an omniscient, omnipotent deity.  

I cited this example in my series of postings about a year ago 

that were intended to show the logistic impossibilities in some 

of the wilderness-wandering stories.  Few inerrantist attempts 

were made to resolve the many problems that I identified in those 

postings.  If Fitzpatrick keeps spamming us with cut-and-paste 

jobs, I'm going to forward those postings to him and ask him

to resolve the problems identified in them.

Farrell Till

How Likely Is It? (3)

From the Errancy Discussion list, 5-3-97:

Till

After the Israelites had seen Yahweh deliver them from the Egyptians by

parting the Red Sea so that they could cross on dry land and then sending

the water crashing in on the Egyptian army, they sang a hymn of praise to

Yahweh and turned inland to march across the Sinai, but they had traveled

only three days from the Red Sea when they began to complain because

there was no water to drink (Exodus 15:22-24).

How Likely Is It? (2)

From *The Skeptical Review*, 1993/July-August:

by Farrell Till 
When Pharaoh refused to release the Israelites from Egyptian bondage, the Hebrew god Yahweh performed wonders unlike anything the world had ever seen. Ten plagues were rained down on Egypt with the implication--and sometimes even direct statement--that the Israelites were spared the horrors of the plagues. When hordes of flies swarmed over Egypt, the land of Goshen, where the Israelites dwelt, was "set apart" so that "no swarms of flies [would] be there" (Ex. 8:22). Likewise, when the plague of murrain decimated the flocks of Egypt, the livestock of the Israelites was spared (9:6). When the hail came, which was more grievous than any hail that had ever struck Egypt (9:24), none fell on the Israelites in the land of Goshen (v:26). When darkness fell over the land, the Israelites "had light in their dwellings" (10:23), and when the firstborn of Egypt were struck dead, the firstborn of the Israelites were saved through the Passover ceremony.

To say the least, those Israelites witnessed some amazing miracles while Moses and Aaron worked to gain their release from bondage, but the wonders didn't cease when Pharaoh finally relented and gave permission for the people to leave Egypt. They saw Yahweh going before them in "a pillar of cloud" by day and in "a pillar of fire" by night (13:21). And these were not just occasional appearances that Yahweh made to the people, because "the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night departed not from before the people" as they marched out of Egypt (v:21).