The following is from the *Errancy Discussion* list, May 21,
1997:
Dear reader,
I have promissed to respond to Mr. Till's arguments because some
muslims (comments : I told on mcd that I am an agnostic not Muslim) like
Adnan and others listen to his word twisting without examining the facts.
By ignorance he might take with him many muslims to a Christless eternity.
TILL
I'm afraid that we are all going to go to a "Christless eternity," but the
thought of that doesn't bother me. Before I was born, I was nothing and had
no awareness of anything, because I didn't exist. When I die, I will return
to what I was... nothing. What is so dreadful about that?
WALID
To me as a Christian that is not a joking matter at all. That's why I think
it is crucial to answer him on mcd. Worse than that, he mocks the God of
Israel. I will reveal his scripture twisting by God's help. My God is the
God of Israel, and not The God of this world who makes tricks like the
magicians of ancient Egypt.
TILL
Yes, Walid's god is the god of Israel who either approved or commanded
the slaughter of women, children and babies (Num. 33:17-18; Joshua 10-11;
1 Sam. 15:1-3, etc., etc., etc.). Walid can have him; I don't want him.
WALID
Mr. Till says: "Nebuchadnezzar did capture the mainland suburb of Tyre,
but he never succeeded in taking the island part, which was the seat of
Tyrian grandeur. That being so, it could hardly be said that Nebuchadnezzar
wreaked the total havoc on Tyre that Ezekiel vituperatively predicted in
the passages cited.".
The reason he has to twist the fact that mainland Tyre was not a fortified
city is to deny that Nebuchadnezzar fulfilled verses 7-11. But it will not
work nor his play with words can be sold to any Judge or Jury.
TILL
All anyone has to do is study the best information that history provides us,
and he will see that Ezekie's prediction of Nebuchadnezzar's role in the
prophecy failed. I have repeatedly pointed out that even Ezekiel himself
admitted the failure (29:18-19), but Walid consistently skirts this issue.
WALID
Now, all one has to prove is that Tyre(mainland) was not a simple unwalled
suburb, but a fortified city. If this is proved than verses 7-11 cannot be
questioned.
He uses the word "suburb" for mainland Tyre, and makes the island part "the
seat of Tyrian grandeur". Mr. Till has to try to shift things around to make
his presumptions fit, yet he contradicts history. He tries to cancel out the
mainland city by referring the mainland to the "daughter villages" in verse 8.
TILL
Well, as I have pointed out, verse 8 clearly says that Nebuchadnezzar would
"slay with the sword YOUR daughters in the field" and would then make "forts
against YOU, and cast up a mount against YOU, and raise up the buckler
against YOU."
As I pointed out to Walid, if someone said to him, "I will kill with the
sword YOUR daughters, and then I will attack you and beat you up," what
reasonable person would think that the threat had been completed after this
person had killed Walid's daughters? Clearly, "your daughters in the field"
were something entirely different from "you" in this passage. The daughters
in the field were the mainland villages, and even the translation that Walid
first quoted to us rendered the Hebrew expression as "mainland settlements,"
so when Nebuchadnezzar had destroyed "YOUR daughters in the field,"
he had not yet destroyed "YOU." Now if Ezekiel was saying only that
Nebuchadnezzar would destroy a fortified city on the mainland, why did
he say that "daughters in the field" or "mainland settlements" would be
killed or destroyed? Is everyone noticing that when a part of this prophecy
doesn't conveniently fit into Walid's claim, he simply ignores it?
Now if Walid will simply read Ezekiel 27, even he should recognize by all of
the sea and ship imagery that the prophecy was about the island city. In
the following quotation of the entire chapter, I have emphasized in bold
letters words and expressions that show that Ezekiel's prophecy was clearly
directed at a city that was in the sea.
>Ezekiel 27:1 The word of Yahweh came to me:
>2 Now you, mortal, raise a lamentation over Tyre,
>3 and say to Tyre, which sits at the ENTRANCE TO THE SEA, merchant
of the peoples on many coastlands, Thus says the Lord GOD: O Tyre, you
have said, "I am perfect in beauty."
>4 Your borders are IN THE HEART OF THE SEA; your builders made
perfect your beauty.
>5 They made all your PLANKS of fir trees from Senir; they took a cedar
from Lebanon to make a MAST for you.
>6 From oaks of Bashan they made your OARS; they made your DECK
of pines from the coasts of Cyprus, inlaid with ivory.
>7 Of fine embroidered linen from Egypt was your SAIL, serving as your
ensign; blue and purple from the coasts of Elishah was your AWNING.
>8 The inhabitants of Sidon and Arvad were your ROWERS; skilled men of
Zemer were within you, they were your PILOTS.
>9 The elders of Gebal and its artisans were within you, CAULKING YOUR
SEAMS; all the SHIPS OF THE SEA with their MARINERS were within
you, to barter for your wares.
TILL
That Ezekiel was metaphorically describing Tyre as a ship is evident to
anyone who wants to see the obvious meaning of the passage. The
metaphor is very appropriate for a city that occupied an entire island in
the sea but hardly appropriate for mainland villages. The quotation of
chapter 27 continues.
>10 Paras and Lud and Put were in your army, your mighty warriors; they
hung shield and helmet in you; they gave you splendor.
>11 Men of Arvad and Helech were on your walls all around; men of Gamad
were at your towers. They hung their quivers all around your walls; they
made perfect your beauty.
>12 Tarshish did business with you out of the abundance of your great
wealth; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares.
>13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged human
beings and vessels of bronze for your merchandise.
>14 Beth-togarmah exchanged for your wares horses, war horses, and mules.
>15 The Rhodians traded with you; many coastlands were your own special
markets; they brought you in payment ivory tusks and ebony.
>16 Edom did business with you because of your abundant goods; they
exchanged for your wares turquoise, purple, embroidered work, fine linen,
coral, and rubies.
>17 Judah and the land of Israel traded with you; they exchanged for your
merchandise wheat from Minnith, millet, honey, oil, and balm.
>18 Damascus traded with you for your abundant goods--because of your
great wealth of every kind--wine of Helbon, and white wool.
>19 Vedan and Javan from Uzal entered into trade for your wares; wrought
iron, cassia, and sweet cane were bartered for your merchandise.
>20 Dedan traded with you in saddlecloths for riding.
>21 Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your favored dealers in lambs,
rams, and goats; in these they did business with you.
>22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah traded with you; they exchanged
for your wares the best of all kinds of spices, and all precious stones, and
gold.
>23 Haran, Canneh, Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad
traded with you.
>24 These traded with you in choice garments, in clothes of blue and
embroidered work, and in carpets of colored material, bound with cords and
made secure; in these they traded with you.
>25 The ships of Tarshish traveled for you in your trade. So you were
filled and heavily laden in THE HEART OF THE SEAS.
>26 Your ROWERS have brought you into the HIGH SEAS. The EAST
WIND has WRECKED you in THE HEART OF THE SEAS.
>27 Your riches, your wares, your merchandise, your MARINERS and
your PILOTS, your CAULKERS, your dealers in merchandise, and all
your warriors within you, with all the company that is with you, SINK
INTO THE HEART OF THE SEAS on the day of your ruin.
>28 At the sound of the cry of your PILOTS the countryside shakes,
>29 and down from their ships come all that handle the oar. The
MARINERS and all the PILOTS OF THE SEA stand on the shore
>30 and wail aloud over you, and cry bitterly. They throw dust on their
heads and wallow in ashes;
>31 they make themselves bald for you, and put on sackcloth, and they
weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter mourning.
>32 In their wailing they raise a lamentation for you, and lament over
you: "Who was ever destroyed like Tyre IN THE MIDST OF THE SEA?
>33 When your wares came from the seas, you satisfied many peoples; with
your abundant wealth and merchandise you enriched the kings of the earth.
>34 Now you are wrecked by the SEAS, in the DEPTHS OF THE WATER;
your merchandise and all your CREW have SUNK with you.
TILL
Again, we can clearly see the metaphorical representation of Tyre as a
ship that is wrecked and sinks into the sea. Does this imagery fit a mainland
city? Well, notice that the last two verses of this chapter refers to the
reactions of "the inhabitants of the coastlands" who witness Tyre's
destruction in the sea.
>35 All the INHABITANTS OF THE COASTLANDS are appalled at you;
and their kings are horribly afraid, their faces are convulsed.
>36 The merchants among the peoples hiss at you; you have come to a
dreadful end and shall be no more FOREVER.
TILL
The "prophecy" makes a clear distinction between the city "in the heart
of the seas" and the inhabitants of the mainland. Furthermore, this chapter
ends with the repetition of the prediction that Tyre would "be no more
FOREVER."
I will have to stop at this point and continue later. I am now putting my
time into this effort not for Walid's benefit but for the benefit of more
reasonable people who may read the exchanges. I have had enough
discussions with biblical inerrantists to know that nothing will budge
Walid from his untenable position.
Farrell Till
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