The Bottom Line

The following are some of my comments from a discussion I had with a Christian:

You conveniently discard or have never even read the parts of the Bible that show Yahweh to be unjust, murderous and just a plain sick cad by any reasonable code of morality. I will bring some of these verses to your attention. I hope you will begin a critical analysis of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, because that is the only way you will arrive at the truth. [Only] looking for reasons to believe in any endeavor, religious or secular, is not a blueprint for finding the truth.

A Reasonable Answer To A Troublesome Question?

The following is my reply to an answer to a question that I had asked the local Church of Christ preacher concerning the Bible doctrine of an eternal hell. He had enlisted the help of an older preacher in answering this question and he published this answer in his weekly publication. Quotes from this preacher's article are in bold black letters--by the way, the local preacher never did respond to my reply:

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne 

A Reasonable Answer To A Troublesome Question, is an article written by Maurice Barnett published in the May 9, 2004, edition of Faith Builder. It was Barnett's attempt at answering this question that you presented to him (a question I had asked you): "Why would a God of love create a race of beings, knowing that He would have to sentence the vast majority of them to suffer forever in hell?" The question you presented to him is troublesome, but more important it is devastating to the truth of fundamentalist Christianity if it can't be answered satisfactorily. And Barnett has no satisfactory answer. He meanders around with a lot of irrelevant thoughts, but never even comes close to a satisfactory answer.

Some Things To Consider

I left the Church of Christ and Christianity in 2006. The following is a letter I wrote to a member of the congregation that I was a member of shortly after I left--I never received a reply:

by Kenneth Hawthorne

I have some things I would like for you to consider based on our talk at Panera Bread in Sept. Plus some thoughts and questions on the eternal hell taught in the Bible. I have had most of this letter ready for some time, but have just now decided to send it. I have presented some of this information about an eternal hell to you before--with no reply. You have asked me, "Kenneth, how could you?" (i.e., leave Christianity). Well, contained in this letter are some of the reasons how I could and why I did. You obviously think I made a bad decision to leave Christianity; then I would appreciate it if you would tell me why you disagree with the information in this letter. I will be more than happy to listen to what you have to say. 

An Omni God And His Eternal Hell (2)

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

The Bible presents its god, Yahweh, as having amazing supernatural characteristics:

1) Omniscient- It is claimed that this god knows all, past, present and future. One very interesting bit of knowledge that this god is claimed to have is found in Mt 7:13-14. This verse teaches that man's ultimate destination is either heaven or hell. And that this god knew before creating the first human, that if he went ahead with this plan to create man found in the Bible, that this version of man would be so flawed that most would wind up in hell.

Looking For The Truth About The Bible

"The interest I have in believing a thing is not proof of the existence of that thing." Voltaire

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be." Albert Einstein

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

If you haven't already guessed, the "it" in the blog title is the Bible. I named this blog after the 1926 classic by Joseph Wheless, Is It God's Word?, and I'm afraid most Christians have not done a real investigation into the answer to this question.

I was indoctrinated from an early age and always just accepted that the answer was yes, and as I got older I only looked for evidence to confirm what I already believed. Uncritical acceptance of the Bible as the verbally inspired word of God was strongly encouraged, and I accepted it as true doing a nominal rather than an actual investigation of the claim. Any of this sound familiar?

Responsibility, What Is Yahweh's Policy?

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

Dave Matson asks the question concerning the god of the Bible, Does God Need Praise and Glory?. The Bible clearly teaches that this god wants but doesn't need praise and glory. The men who wrote the Bible wrote themselves into a corner on this one. You see they describe this god as perfect and complete, therefore needing nothing. So these authors of the Bible have him only wanting praise and glory. But even if there are other alleged reasons why he created man, creating man was not something that he needed.

The Bible's authors claim that their god is all-knowing (plus all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise, perfect and complete and a few more I'm probably leaving out). And sure enough in Mt 7:13-14, they claim he knew that the majority of his beloved(?) humans would wind up in his eternal hell. Oops! So the Bible's hapless authors in their attempt to make their god-creation omni-everything, plus have the ultimate in punishment to scare people into their new religion, went too far. They have their all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, all-wise, perfect and complete  etc., god-creation willing for billions of his allegedly beloved humans to suffer unspeakable horrors in his eternal hell for something he only wanted but didn't need.

Then they have the absolute gall to claim this god loved his human creation so much that he sent his son to be crucified (bloodshed, injustice, pain and murder are around this god like flies on feces) to keep man from going to hell when he knew all along this "wonderful, loving sacrifice" would "save" only a comparative handful. If this sordid tale were true it would be more of an obligation on the part of this god for putting this flawed creation in such a precarious situation to begin with. This is no description of a God of love much less an all-loving God. This is a description of a infinitely terrible fiend. And what kind of an example is this god setting for humans concerning responsibility? The average human is much more responsible than this--responsibility, what's your policy? Every day millions of people choose to do the right thing. It is inconceivable that allowing billions of sentient humans to be tortured for eternity is the right thing. Responsibility, what is Yahweh's policy? His policy is infinite irresponsibility.

The Bible has the Creator allegedly acting in an infinitely horrible, irresponsible manner that no rational, loving human would ever be guilty of. Therefore, the god of the Bible cannot be anything but pure fiction.

God's Eternal Purpose?

The local Church of Christ preacher had the following outline in his weekly bulletin:

God had [and continues to have] an eternal purpose (Ephesians 3:11):

      1. His very nature is purposeful (Isaiah 46:8-11; Jeremiah 4:28; 
          Ephesians  1:11)          
      2. His eternal purpose is to give eternal life (John 10:10,27,28; 
          Titus 1:1,2).

      3. This is not mere eternal existence, but eternal existence with 
          Him (Matthew 25:31-46).

 In The Beginning there was unlimited power  
      1. Defining power: “capacity to produce a desired result".
       2. Various kinds of power; physical, mental, political, legal, moral. 
          Type of power used depends on result desired.

      3. The power of God: all the power necessary to accomplish His 
          eternal purpose.

So, let me see if I've got this right. God (Yahweh) is a purposeful God. And his eternal purpose (def. The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists; something set up as an object or end to be attained), is to give eternal life to man.  And he had all the power necessary to accomplish this eternal purpose--this desired result--in fact this desired result was the purpose of man's creation.

Then why is it that only a FEW (Mt 7:13-14) will attain what this God had all the power necessary to accomplish?

Kenneth W Hawthorne 

Wanting To Believe In Miracles

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne
A letter I sent to a Church of Christ preacher about 7 years ago:

Christians make the claim that God came to earth in the flesh of a man, Jesus Christ. That he was born of a virgin, performed various miracles while on earth, died and about three days later came back to life never to die again, then forty days later ascended into heaven, and that all or much of this was miraculously foretold by God-inspired prophets in the Old Testament. These are all ontologically positive and distant claims that go against all conventional, community experiences. These Christian claims, therefore, bear an extremely high asymmetrical burden of proof. That means that before someone should believe these claims are actually true, the evidence presented would have to be so profound and so unequivocal that one would be forced to believe these claims instead of believing what he knows happens all the time--and go with something that, as far as his experiences, has never happened.

Unfortunately, what I've seen as evidence for these Christian claims is not even close to being sufficient for the type of claims made. The four Gospels are nothing but hearsay, written by biased, anonymous writers. Certain church "fathers" made a fanciful connection to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John being the authors--but no one really knows who wrote these book. These church fathers amount to no more than what you would consider denominational preachers today--yet you believe them on this essential matter--and would, today, be very skeptical of anything they had to say on the subject of religion. But even if Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were the actual authors they were biased and what they wrote amounts to no more than religious propaganda. None of the  disinterested, contemporary scientists or writers of the time Jesus is said to have lived record anything about Jesus, much less his miracles. Josephus does not qualify because it is obvious that his work has been tampered with concerning his mention of Jesus and is therefore flawed and unreliable. Alexander Campbell had this to say:

A God Who "Really Care(s) About Others"?

"People who really care about others use their strength to help and protect them." ~ a comment about the Aurora, CO movie theater murders, July 20, 2012.

If it should be expected that people use their strength to help and protect others, what should be expected from an almighty God? Certainly not allowing the vast majority of people to suffer for eternity, MT 7:13-14, when he could have prevented it.

Kenneth W. Hawthorne

A Few Questions

These are some questions that I asked a Church-of-Christ preacher after reading an article that he wrote. I don't recall ever getting an answer from him:

Mr -----,

Here are a few questions that I have concerning information in one of your blog posts:

1. Why did God create us in the New Testament scenario, if he knew all would sin, and knew that the many vs the few would eternally perish (Mt. 7:13-14)?  2 Peter 3:9 says that it is not God's will that ANY perish. Did God not have the ability to achieve his will that none perish?

2. If God is omniscient and could see what would happen if he created Satan, why would he go ahead and create Satan knowing that in his attempt to be victorious over Satan, billions of humans would have to eternally perish?

3. Why would God, who doesn't need man (Acts 17:25), nevertheless, go ahead and create man to get some things that he only wanted (victory over Satan, whom he didn't have to create; fear and obedience from man; companionship from man, etc.), but didn't need, knowing that to get these things that he didn't need, billions of sentient humans would have to eternally perish?

4. You said that Jesus [dying] on the cross, ...sealed the greatest victory possible. But how could this be considered "the greatest  victory possible" when Satan deceives the whole world (Rev 12:9), disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor 11:14), and blinds the minds of the unbelieving ( 2 Cor 4:4), resulting in Jesus losing the majority of souls to Satan (Mt 7:13-14)?

5. You said that man is a "tool" by which God gets glory. But God doesn't need anything from man, thus he doesn't need glory. Why would God put his beloved(?), flawed humans under the influence of such a powerful being for evil as Satan (whom he didn't have to create) to get something that wasn't necessary--knowing that to get this glory that he doesn't need, billions of sentient humans would have to eternally perish?

Well, I've got a lot more questions I could ask. But I'll stop for now. You've got a lot on your plate with these five.

Ken Hawthorne

Ezekiel's Prophecy About Egypt

In Ezekiel 29:8-21, Ezekiel prophesied that king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon (c 634 – 562 BC) would destroy  Egypt and leave it utterly desolate for a period of 40 years, during which no foot of man or beast would pass through it. But history records no such desolation of Egypt during or after the reign of Nebuchadnezzar.

Fifteen Questions

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

These fifteen questions were presented to a Church of Christ preacher in 2011. He has made no attempt to answer them:

1. To what purpose does the New Testament teach that Yahweh created man, knowing that he would be sending the vast majority (multiplied billions) to suffer eternally in hell [Mt. 7:13-14]? (note: the word Yahweh is a transliteration of a Hebrew word for God).

2. How do you explain that an allegedly perfect and complete God (therefore, needing nothing) would allow this ghastly eternal misery to happen for a purpose that was not necessary?

3. Do you think Yahweh made a responsible choice in allowing this horrendous eternal tragedy to happen?

4. You were asked, do you believe that it could be said, with any believability, that I loved a child I allowed to come into the world knowing ahead of time this child would be tortured for eternity? You answered, "No." Do you believe that it could be said, with any believability, that Yahweh loved billions of children he allowed to come into the world knowing ahead of time these children would be tortured for eternity?

5. You correctly said that the Creator is greater than the creature. But since Yahweh allowed this inconceivably horrific tragedy to happen to multiplied billions of children, how can it be said, with any believability, that he is better than a human who wouldn't allow even one child to come into the world knowing ahead of time that child would be tortured for eternity?

The following ten questions were presented in their unrevised form subsequent to and with consideration given to the following quote from a Church-of-Christ website: "God has told us about [hell] because He doesn't want us to go there.":

1. You say that "God has told us about [hell] because He doesn't want us to go there." But he didn't tell Israel in the Old Testament about hell. Does that mean he wanted them to go there?

2. Since Yahweh knew, before he created the first human, that the overwhelming majority of his flawed human creation would be going to his eternal hell, and you say he told us about hell because he doesn't want us to go there; considering the New Testament (NT) teaching that few will miss going to hell, how much different would it have been if he had wanted us to go to hell?

3. If he doesn't want us to go to hell then why did he create man in the first place, knowing the vast majority would go to hell?

4. The Bible teaches that Yahweh has the following attributes: all powerful, all knowing, all-wise, loving, compassionate, merciful, sovereign, complete and perfect. You said that Yahweh doesn't want us to go to hell. If this is true and he has these attributes, he not only wouldn't have wanted man to go to hell, he couldn't have wanted man to go to hell and could have and would have come up with a plan whereby no humans would have wound up in an eternal hell. However, the NT teaches that Yahweh didn't do this, rather, he chose to create man, knowing that he would be sending the vast majority to suffer in his eternal hell (his "ultimate will", as you have called it). What is your explanation for this obvious inconsistency?

5. If Yahweh knew that the vast majority of his weak, error-prone human creation would wind up in his eternal hell if he went with the "plan of salvation" revealed in the NT, and if Yahweh is the sovereign God (def., sovereign: 6. having supreme rank, power, or authority. Dictionary.com), therefore answering to no one, he can't be forced to do anything against his nature, and if his nature is that he doesn't want us to go to hell, why didn't he create only those he knew would go to heaven and avoid the catastrophe of multiplied billions of his beloved creation suffering eternally in his hell?

6. If Yahweh is the sovereign God and he doesn't want us to go to hell, why didn't he truly create man in his image with the inability to sin, and thus avert an unbelievable eternal tragedy? If it doesn't detract from Yahweh's character to be unable to sin, why would it detract from man's?

7. When a choice is made, it tells us something about what is wanted and what is valued by the one making the choice. Since Yahweh chose not to do either one of these but could have--because of his sovereignty--what is a rational person to understand about what Yahweh wanted?

8. Why do you think Christians extol the virtue of Yahweh for "...lov[ing] the world so much, that he gave his only son..."(John 3:16 Phillips Translation), when he knew that it would be a failed mission, irresponsibly allowing the vast majority of humanity to suffer eternally, when if he has all of the divine attributes the Bible alleges him to have, and if he really loved the world so much, not only would he have willed that no human be sent to an eternal hell--he would have actually accomplished that will?

9. If Yahweh doesn't want us to go to hell, and he is infinitely "holy" and finite sinning against him is such an infinitely terrible thing deserving punishment in his eternal hell, then how could he, with all of his alleged divine attributes, put what he knew was a humanity that was so flawed and so ill equipped to react to such "holiness" in such an eternally precarious situation--a situational "test" that he knew the vast majority would fail and therefore wind up in "his infinite holiness's" eternal hell?

10. What all of this proves is that the Bible has at least one major contradiction in it, and this contradiction involves the impossibility of its god Yahweh being the true God. And because of this, shouldn't a reasonable person believe that Yahweh is, in reality, merely a fictitious product of the superstitious imagination of barbaric, ancient man? 

*[The following was added to this post, 1-10-15. It was part of the original post of the 15 questions in 2011]:

These questions, and more, must be satisfactorily answered if any rational person is expected to even begin to consider Yahweh as the true God. Yahweh's alleged divinely superlative and omni characteristics, and his eternal hell that he will allow the vast majority of his beloved (?) humans to go to are not compatible. It is the most troubling error recorded in the Bible, and it exposes the Bible (at least the New Testament--there are other reasons why the Yahweh of the Old Testament can't be God) as an obvious work of man and man only, laying bare its god Yahweh as a contradictory impossibility.

Addendum:
It is apparent that the New Testament doctrine of an eternal hell is an evolved concept. The fact that there was no warning by Yahweh in the Old Testament of such a place that man was in jeopardy of being sent to, should make this obvious to even the most closed mind (the only hint of such a place in the Old Testament occurs late, in Daniel 12:2. Pre-Babylonian-captivity Jews believed only in a shadowy existence after death in a place called "Sheol", but in Babylon they were introduced to the Persian concept of a final resurrection, followed by everlasting life for the righteous and everlasting contempt for the unrighteous). Writers of the New Testament progressed with this rather recent idea that some Jews had incorporated into their faith. But they forgot that it had not even been mentioned in the Old Testament (until the hint in Daniel). And they didn't think about the contradiction it would present between it and their god Yahweh and his alleged divinely superlative and omni characteristics. 

If anyone thinks they have reasonable answers to these questions that would successfully defend Yahweh's conduct and alleged characteristics, please, let's see them. Your silence will lead us to conclude that you don't. And if you don't, why do you remain a fundamentalist Christian?

The Bible's Contradictory God

(Revised Nov. 9, 2014. Originally published October 25, 2014)
by Kenneth W. Hawthorne
^"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV). Thus reads one of the most recognized verses in the Bible. The word "so" is an adverb of intensity and degree meaning to such an extent. The word "love" translates the Greek word agapao and is an unselfish love that seeks the absolute best for its object. So what we have is the claim that God (Yahweh) did the best that he could, unselfishly giving the best that he had so that man, whom he loved so much, would not eternally perish but eternally live. 

But why would Yahweh put man in the position where he needed saving in the first place? It's as if Yahweh came upon man for the first time, already created and found man in a situation where he needed saving and did all he could to save man, but could only save a few. Kind of like when paramedics arrive at the scene of a horrific multi-vehicle accident. However, this is not the case at all. Yahweh allegedly created man and had complete control over how man was created.

John 3:16 is a very puzzling verse when one considers five of the major characteristics that the Bible claims for its god Yahweh: all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving and sovereign, who also has no needs. Mt. 7:13-14 actually admits that Yahweh knew that the many in contrast to the few would eternally perish--which would have to have been something that he knew before he ever created the first human. Allegedly, it's not his will that any perish (2 Peter 3:9). If, then, he is all-powerful, he could have created man in a way in which all of humanity would go to heaven and none would eternally perish. Also, allegedly, he is sovereign, thus no one was over him, overruling him and thus causing him to create man in the Bible scenario against his will--why, then, could he not have achieved his will that no human eternally perish? There is no adequate answer to get the Bible out of this mess. Bible apologists sometimes say that Yahweh wanted man to choose to serve him. Absolutely not! Do these apologists expect us to believe that this is what love would have wanted, knowing what the terrible outcome would be, and knowing that there was no reason that it had to be this way? The only answer is that the Bible contradicts itself on this most important of issues.

When I say that Yahweh is contradictory on this most important of issues I am merely pointing out the obvious. When we speak of a person being contradictory we are merely expressing our observation that they act contrary or opposite to characteristics and values that they or someone claims they have. If a person claims to love animals but is accused and convicted of gross animal cruelty through abundant clear evidence, this is an obvious contradiction in what this person claims to believe and what they actually believe. And so it is with the Bible's Yahweh. The allegedly inspired writers of the Bible claim that Yahweh has the five characteristics mentioned above. But when we compare these with his actions, it poses a glaring contradiction concerning this god and his eternal hell.

To sum up, the Bible claims that its god Yahweh knew, before creating the first human, that most of humanity would eternally suffer [in the hell that he also created]--if he went with the scenario found in the Bible. However, the Bible claims that he does not want anyone to eternally suffer in hell, had the power and authority to prevent anyone from eternally suffering in hell, and there was no purpose, need, nor reason that made it necessary that anyone eternally suffer in hell--BUT HE ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN TO MOST OF HUMANITY ANYWAY?! Impossible! That is if words have any meaning at all.

Yahweh, The Embarrassment Of Christianity

Anyone who has done an honest critical analysis of the Bible has to be shocked at the portrayal of God in the form of Yahweh. Thomas Paine called it blasphemy to attribute to the Creator the behavior found in the Bible's god Yahweh. 19th century deist, Elihu Palmer observed that there are commands "which are said to come from God, which would disgrace the character of any honest man, and make him a candidate for prison." (Principles of Nature--1801). 

I plan to give some examples of this "behavior" by the god of Christianity in the coming weeks.

Dedication Of This Blog

The Bible claims to be the inspired word of God. But is it? The goal of this blog is to critically examine the Bible and its extraordinary claims. We attempt to look at these claims through the clear light of reason not through the irrational fog of wanting to believe and only looking for reasons to believe.

With these thoughts in mind, I am proud to announce the dedication of this blog to the memory of the late Farrell Till (1933-2012). Till was a Church-of-Christ preacher who realized he could no longer preach what he finally had to admit were unverifiable ancient superstitions. Till knew the Bible better than most Christians and with impeccable logic, and a very clear and understandable writing style, relentlessly showed the Bible to be the uninspired book that reason proved it had to be. It is my firm belief that he was in a class by himself in his abilities in combating the superstition that is Christianity. I hope to save for posterity many of his key articles and comments that he had with Christian apologists especially on now defunct internet discussion lists.

Kenneth W. Hawthorne

A High Priest Of The Good Things To Come?

This is my reply to an article in a Church of Christ bulletin from 2012. Continuing his policy toward the omni God/eternal hell problem (even until now, 2014), the preacher never attempted an answer to my reply. My comments are in blue:

In eternity past, knowing man would sin, God planned to reconcile man to Himself (that is, bind man anew to Himself in a covenant relationship) in Jesus Christ, the eternal Word of God. (2 Tim. 1:8-10)

He knew: 1) man would sin; 2) all men would sin, Romans 3:23; 3) the vast majority would be lost, Mt 7:13-14; 4) therefore, that this "[plan] to reconcile man to himself" would be an utter failure. Yet he created man anyway, with this grotesquely flawed plan though it was not necessary that he do so (he is perfect and doesn't need anything from man, Acts 17:25). He allegedly loves man (as you know, a Bible writer claims that Yahweh is "...not willing that any should perish...", 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV), thus since he is allegedly omnipotent he could have (among other possible humane options) created man truly in his image, with free will and the inability to sin. So that his will that no man go to an eternal hell would have been a reality. And because of his sovereignty, who or what would have told him that he couldn't create man in this way? Please explain how it is that you can continue to believe this god exists with the knowledge of this clear contradiction.

Yahweh's "Plan Of Salvation"

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

Here is an excerpt from the local Church-of-Christ preacher's weekly bulletin--showing an amazing absence of any critical thought:
 

3. He [Yahweh] does not know a better plan of salvation

            than His. 

              a.  He didn't spare His Son (Rom. 8:32).

              b.  He had eternity past to plan it (Eph. 3:8-11; 

                          2 Tim. 1:8-9; Titus 1:1-2).

              c.  If He knew a better plan, He would have used it.

So we have an all-powerful, all-compassionate all-loving, full of mercy, complete and perfect Father, Son and Holy Spirit in eternity past. None of the three need anything. There is nothing that they have to do. Only they exist. The Father has the idea that he might do some creating. He, of course doesn't have to create--he doesn't have to do anything. There is no outside force twisting his arm to create man. There is nothing forcing him to create man or create a particular kind of man--he's the sovereign God!

In his alleged ultimate wisdom, he decides to create a human race who has the ability to displease him (he calls it sin). This, despite the fact that he knows he's a bit testy and gets offended at the drop of a...well, at the drop of anything. Now he is a bit of a braggart. He likes to claim that, as we've already noted: he's all-powerful, all-compassionate, all-loving, full of mercy, sovereign, and complete and perfect. And one that I left out, he's also all-knowing. Now here is where it gets a little tricky. He decides to create what he knows is a very flawed humanity.  (Imperfection coming from perfection? yeah, I know what you're thinking) He knows that all--that's right all will displease him (sin). For some reason known only to this matchless, all-loving, all-compassionate, all-powerful, sovereign, all-knowing God who is full, absolutely full, unimaginably full of mercy--he has (?) to create what he calls an eternal hell for all of these beloved humans who die in a state of being unpleasing to this wonderful God.
 

But, he has a plan to rescue these flawed, sin-prone wretches who are bound for his eternal hell. (You know, you just knew the all-loving, all-compassionate, full of mercy part would kick in!) Not to worry, humanity will not have to suffer forever in the flames of hell! He will send the Son to earth to save man. The Son will have to suffer a few hours of pain on earth and then have his spirit separate from his body and return right back to where he was in all his blissful completeness--really not much to ask of the Son to avert the eternal suffering of multiplied billions of humanity--apples and oranges really. But, alas, this "plan of salvation" that he had all eternity past to come up with is a big flop! (Matt 7:13-14). Oh well, these billions of lost souls can take consolation in the fact that this was the best he could do--because [I]f He knew a better plan, He would have used it."

Omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, perfect and complete, omniwise, sovereign? And preachers keep on preaching this old, old story! How sad.

 

 

David Killed Goliath Twice?

1 Samuel 17:49-51

New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴⁹ Then David put his hand in his bag and took out a stone; and he slung it and struck the Philistine in his forehead, so that the stone sank into his forehead, and he fell on his face to the earth. ⁵⁰ So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and struck the Philistine and killed him. But there was no sword in the hand of David. ⁵¹ Therefore David ran and stood over the Philistine, took his sword and drew it out of its sheath and killed him, and cut off his head with it. And when the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.

1 Samuel 17:49-51

English Standard Version (ESV)

⁴⁹ And David put his hand in his bag and took out a stone and slung it and struck the Philistine on his forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell on his face to the ground.
⁵⁰ So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and struck the Philistine and killed him. There was no sword in the hand of David. ⁵¹ Then David ran and stood over the Philistine and took his sword and drew it out of its sheath and killed him and cut off his head with it. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.

A Letter To A Concerned Christian Friend

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne
[Edited 12-31-13 from previous post]

I’m writing this letter to let you know the main reason why I am no longer a Christian, no longer believe that Yahweh is God and no longer believe that the Bible is the word of God. These decisions were not made lightly; they were made after much thought and study, and I hope you will see these were the only real choices I had. But if not, as always, I am ready to consider what you or anyone else has to say on this issue.

Simply, the omni characteristics that the Bible writers give Yahweh are incompatible with the New Testament teaching that he will send the vast majority of humanity to his eternal hell.

The Bible claims that Yahweh is:

1) Omniscient- If he is all knowing, then he knew if he went with the creation of man and the “plan of salvation” for man as revealed in the Bible that the vast majority of humanity would eternally perish (see Mt. 7:13-14).

2) Omnibenevolent- The word benevolent means “characterized by kindness and concern for others” (Answers.com). There are many verses that express his love, compassion and mercy for humanity; 2 Peter 3:9 says that it is not his will that any perish.

I think any Christian would agree that the Creator is greater than the creature (man). So God’s love must be of a much greater magnitude than man’s. But no loving human would conceive a child and allow it to come into the world knowing beforehand that this child would wind up in an eternal hell. So certainly a loving Creator would not do so. But the Bible teaches that this is just what Yahweh did--multiplied billions of times, and continues to allow millions to come into the world every year knowing that most will wind up in his eternal hell.

3) Perfect and Complete- Acts 17:25 says “Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything…” The Bible teaches that Yahweh doesn’t need anything and certainly doesn’t need anything from man. The thought comes to mind--why then did he create man knowing the eternally terrible outcome? It couldn’t have been for anything that he needed; so it must have been merely for something that he wanted but didn’t have to have. However, this is completely inconsistent with his alleged love for man and his will that no human perish. So the only conclusion is that it was not necessary that he create humanity in such a way that any would perish

4) Omnipotent- If he is all powerful this means that if it was his will that no one perish, then no one would perish. And if he is also all knowing, he could have and would have come up with a plan in which no one would perish. For example, he could have created humans like himself with free will and the inability to sin.

5) Sovereign- This means that there is no authority higher than him, and thus nothing could have overruled him in achieving his will that not one human perish.

Conclusion:

No God with these omni characteristics could/would have allowed even one, much less multiplied billions of humans to eternally perish in hell. However, the Bible teaches that the alleged omni God Yahweh will do just that, allow untold billions of his human creation to eternally perish. Therefore, the Bible, being contradictory on this most important of subjects, loses all credibility and cannot be the inerrant, inspired word of God and its alleged omni God, Yahweh, cannot be God.

Some Objections Answered:

But God wants man to have free will and choose to serve him. There would be no value to God in creating robots who had no choice but to serve him.

The omni love, compassion and mercy that he has for man could not have wanted this—knowing what such a flawed, sin-prone creation (Romans 3:23; I John 1:8) would do with this type of free will and the terrible eternal results.

Yahweh also allegedly has a different want. However, this want is consistent with his omni characteristics. That want is that no one perish. Because of his love for man, he could not have wanted something that would cause an infinite eternal calamity to befall his beloved human creation. It is obvious that his love for man, together with his omniscience, omnipotence and sovereignty would not have permitted this eternal tragedy to happen. Therefore, this type of free will could not have been something that he wanted nor could/would have allowed.

Another type of free will is the type that Yahweh allegedly has. He has free will but can’t sin. He is said to have created man in his image; why then wouldn’t he have truly created man in his image with the type of free will that he has? Because he loves man, wants no one to perish, is omniscient, omnipotent and sovereign, and there was no necessity that man be created in a scenario in which the vast majority would perish, he would had to have created man this way (or something similar). And since Yahweh has value, has this type of free will and is not derogatorily considered a robot, then why wouldn’t man also have value (which Yahweh doesn’t need from man anyway) if he had this type of free will and also not derogatorily be considered a robot?

Jesus died for your sins. Why won't you believe in him, obey him and save yourself?

The New Testament and Christians make much of Jesus’ alleged sacrifice to save man from eternal hell and the love that was shown by Yahweh in providing it. But if Yahweh has the omni characteristics that the Bible claims, he would had to have known, before he created the first human, that this sacrifice by Jesus would not accomplish his will that no human perish. He had to have known that it would only save a comparative handful. So, knowing this, the only way that his love could really have been shown toward man would have been in creating man in a way that would achieve his will that no one perish (it not being necessary that he create man in any other way).

Sending Jesus as a sacrifice was part of the “plan of salvation” revealed in the New Testament that would not achieve his will of no one perishing. In fact, under this New Testament plan the vast majority of humanity would wind up eternally perishing (refer back to Mt. 7:13-14). So the “plan of salvation” in the New Testament involving Jesus’ sacrifice has to be considered a puzzling claim, being inconsistent with the characteristics alleged for the omni God Yahweh. This enormously underachieving act is not what Love (see 1 John 4:8) could/would have done if Love is omniscient, perfect and complete, omnipotent, and sovereign. It would have been Love’s will that no one perish—exactly what 2 Peter 3:9 claims—and with these omni characteristics his will that no one perish would have been accomplished.

God cannot do two mutually exclusive things at the same time. He cannot give man free will and make him incapable of sinning.

This objection assumes that free will and the inability to sin are mutually exclusive; i.e., in the same class with the impossiblity for Yahweh, even with his alleged omni characteristics, to be able to make a square circle.

However, free will simply means that one is free to choose between one or more options. But options can be limited. For example, neither I nor any other human has the physical ability to jump to the moon. Although I have free will, jumping to the moon is not a choice that I can make. Indeed, mankind has many such limitations on his free will.

It would not be possible for a God with the omni characteristics that Yahweh is alleged to have to give man the option to choose anything that would cause man to eternally perish.

What possible motivation could such a God have to not limit man's available free-will options to those that would not put him in jeopardy of eternally perishing?

A Simple Question

by Kenneth W. Hawthorne

The following is a comment that I made on a Church of Christ 
discussion group in 2011 (slightly edited):

The question I asked you: "If you wanted to have a child but you knew

before conceiving this child that if you conceived it and brought it

into the world that it would wind up suffering forever in hell, would

you go ahead and conceive that child and bring it into the world?" is

not a question like, "Are you still beating your wife?", which is an

example of a complex question fallacy. Such a fallacy is when a question

is asked that is composed of a presupposition that is false--you have

been beating your wife. It would be possible, though, that the question

could be a legitimate question if it was a known fact that the man being

asked the question had in fact been guilty of beating his wife.

The question that I asked you is not such a question. The question I

asked you is a simple, legitimate, hypothetical question. The question

that I asked you is comparable to, If you knew that you would die in a

car accident tomorrow if you drove to Little Rock, would you drive to

Little Rock tomorrow? The answer is so obviously "No", that the question

is ridiculously absurd. And I think I can safely say that you would

quickly answer that question with a "No", and laugh at the questioner

for asking such a question. But, in regard to my question about whether

you would conceive and bring a child into the world, knowing it would

wind up suffering for eternity in hell, which is even more absurd and

which calls for an even quicker response and even more obvious answer
of "No", you stammer and hesitate...and you won't answer the question.
Why? Because of your fanatical, credulous, unfounded, delusional
devotion to Yahweh. Your answer might make Yahweh look bad. Well,
he is bad. He's worse than bad. He's so fiendish and so infinitely horrible
that taking into consideration his alleged omni qualities--he is a
contradiction, an impossibility.

My question to you involves what we know the Bible teaches about
Yahweh and his eternal hell and is a legitimate question based on
what the Bible admits to. So why the hesitation to answer what should
be a very easy question for a devoted Yahwehist to answer? If Yahweh
has no problem in sending multiplied billions of his sentient, beloved(?)

humans to his eternal hell, having had this knowledge before he created

the first human, why would a Yahwehist who looks to him as our example

to follow, have a problem with allowing only one child to come into the

world, knowing that child will wind up in hell?