Quote Of The Day

"Before we try to explain something, we should be sure it actually happened." --Ray Hyman (from The Skeptic's Dictionary)

"If You Knew..."

The following is part of an interesting exchange between Zach Dills and a Christian in the comments section of  a post by John W. Loftus entitled, "A Christian Mother: ' May You Rot In Hell' ", dated September 30, 2011, from debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com:

Zach Dills:

If you knew beyond a shadow of doubt that before you conceived your son that he would most certainly go to hell and burn for all of eternity would you still have decided to have him? That's the question because that is what the christian god did. He was willing to sacrifice the majority of humanity to eternal torment so that he could have a few people who would worship him for all time. Does that sound like what a loving parent should do? I would say no.

I have no doubt you are busy but the question that you have been asked multiple times that I am still waiting to hear you answer is: if you knew for certain before your son was born that he would end up in hell to suffer for all eternity would you still decide to have him? Yes or no? That is all I want to know. 

Christian:

"If I knew without a doubt that my son would reject Christ and go to Hell, of course I never would have sought his conception."

Zach Dills:

Thank you for your answer. It was good to hear that and I think it proves that you are more moral than the god you worship. It shows you ultimately put your son's needs before your own. Whereas the opposite seems true of your god. The god you worship knows before he "creates" us where we will go (where he will send us) and that does not stop him from making those of us he plans on sending to hell because at the end of the day that god made humans to worship and glorify him. Ultimately creation was always about him. Unlike you and most human parents he is a parent who places his own desires ahead of his "children's". You quote Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.” Now if this [were] true then the fact that so many people are apparently going to hell seems to show that your god does not take his own parenthood very seriously again focusing on himself more than us. The point is I think most people would give the answer you did and I think that is the right answer and that is an answer that shows how ridiculous the idea is of an all loving god creating and sustaining an eternal place of torment for those who do not have the right beliefs about him.

And, finally, a reply from a commenter, "qit" quoting Dills:
"I find it morally reprehensible that you could willingly conceive a
child knowing that he could suffer forever and believing that this was a
loving action upon the part of a loving god."

For me, pulling this exact card out was what finally brought the whole house down many years ago. 

Zach Dills reply to "qit":
Agreed. That was a big issue leading to my exit of the Christian faith as well. 


And for me as also, this issue was what put Christianity in a coffin, slammed the top down on the coffin and drove most of the nails into it--it made the existence of the omni-Christian God impossible.

Kenneth Hawthorne

The Wit And Wisdom Of Mark Twain (3)

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.

Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.

Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it. 

Bible "Prophecies" Of Jesus Christ

It is claimed by fundamentalist Christian apologists that there are over 300 prophecies about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament. One Church-of-Christ preacher even had this as his number one reason that one should consider the Bible the inspired word of God. But when one critically examines this extraordinary claim one finds that it, like all other miraculous claims by these fundamentalist Christian apologists, is all wishful thinking. The following post is taken from chapter 13 of Joseph Wheeless's, *Is It God's Word?*:

THE "PROPHECIES" OF JESUS CHRIST

The Miraculous "Virgin Birth" of Jesus

Matthew, whose gospel was written later, comes first in the order of gospels in our printed collections, for the reason that he gives a detailed "revelation" of the manner of miraculous conception and virgin birth of the Subject of his biography. He begins his book with the genealogy of Jesus, which we elsewhere take notice of. He then proceeds with inspired pen to record:

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of Yahveh appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matt. i, 18-21)

The foregoing is pure fiction; here follows the crowning instance wherein "the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely":

"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord [Heb., Yahveh] by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

An Answer To A Friend

The following is a letter Thomas Paine sent to a friend in response to a letter his friend had sent to him concerning Paine's book The Age of Reason. From, The Online Library of Liberty:

AN ANSWER TO A FRIEND.

Paris,

May 12, 1797.

In your letter of the 20th of March, you give me several quotations from the Bible, which you call the word of God, to shew me that my opinions on religion are wrong, and I could give you as many, from the same book to shew that yours are not right; consequently, then, the Bible decides nothing, because it decides any way, and every way, one chooses to make it.

The McDonald-Till Debate On Biblical Inerrancy (1990)

The following is an excerpt from Farrell Till's rebuttal of Jerry McDonald's fourth defense:

Some may think it unkind to call his syllogisms silly, but so far his only direct effort to prove that the Bible is "of divine origin" was a syllogism that, if not silly itself, was certainly "supported" by silly evidence:  

A Quote From The Errancy List

This is a quote from the Errancy Discussion list from about two years ago:

Stuart Shepherd wrote:

"What arguments are there for the resurrection of Jesus? The empty tomb? If a corpse is missing do we assume that the person resurrected or do we try [to] find the guys who moved the body? The post resurrection appearances of Jesus? Jesus only showed himself to his own followers. History is full of amazing claims by groups where the only witnesses are members of the group. Nobody ever accepts these claims because they lack credibility.

There is no evidence that would stand up in a court of law. Unfortunately, Christians have been brainwashed by parents, friends, family, the media, their church, and their school."